Weapon Reverts Megathread

[huutti]

next to the short circuit and item sets i think the danger shield is the most contested revert, so many people want it, so many dont at the same time, so i figured i would give my input
granted ive never actually used it but knowing what it does, it sounds useless

the original shield gave you 150 health, nothing else, and i think this is useless because i feel it doesnt actually help counter any of snipers biggest foes
the cozy camper regens health, turns off flinching and gives knockback resistance, so you arent forced to reposition/flee and your aim isnt gimped by anyone shooting you, aswell as maybe pyros having a harder time airblasting you off of cliffs, these are very good upsides

the razorback counters spy, one of snipers greatest foes, now you dont have to unscope to constantly worry about your back, the only downside being if the spy uses his gun, which fortunately puts him at risk of dying before killing you assuming your team is protecting you, this is a very nice upside

the new danger shield protects you from pyros, gone are the days of burning for 10 straight seconds everytime a flare is shot your way, also basically turns off the dragons fury

the old danger shield seems useless to me because 150HP doesnt actually help with ANY of snipers weaknesses, spy? doesn't matter how much health you have when he backstabs you. other snipers? 150HP is not enough to avoid a quickscope so it doesnt do jack against them, scouts? at point blank scout is gonna do over 200 damage in 2 shots, air strike soldiers? MAYBE it would help a small bit against surviving air strike rockets

the only 2 areas it would be useful in is 1. when your using the huntsman since your gonna be on the frontline, and 2. if we turned on the croc o style item set, which i would adore but is a total pipedream in our lord the year of 2026, since random has declared that all weapons in the set must be accurate to the sets time period which would nerf the sleeper and the LAST thing the sleeper needs is a nerf

however on the topic of item sets, i'd like to try the tank buster, at first i figured the battalions backup change would be a nerf but it has a very interesting upside i think, being that you only need to take 175 damage to fill the meter VS doing 600 damage
you would lose the extra 20 health and sentry damage resis for you team however by my calculations you would have an almost 3x faster charge meaning you could pop tons of charges all the time, and it came to me in a dream the other day that the whole set makes sense now, the black box doesnt make sense in tandom with the new battalions, but it makes perfect sense with the old battalions, shooting people gives you health back, which makes up for the damage required to have rage, that way you wont be at 25 health when your meter is full, its genius..............
and you would get a constant 20% resis to sentrys which is a nice bonus

PS please consider my backburner and splendid screen propositions

Yes, original danger shield is utter garbage, but you should consider thinking about the pre-Jungle Inferno version

I support the battalion's and tank buster

[NeoTapp]

Danger Shield had +15% bullet resist and +20% explosive resist besides 150hp, so you could tank quickscope. I think this version is too infamous to not include it.

Also is there a way to make weapons from sets act like they did before if they're used together? Or will it be too confusing?

[Suspicious Carl]

next to the short circuit and item sets i think the danger shield is the most contested revert, so many people want it, so many dont at the same time, so i figured i would give my input
granted ive never actually used it but knowing what it does, it sounds useless

the original shield gave you 150 health, nothing else, and i think this is useless because i feel it doesnt actually help counter any of snipers biggest foes
the cozy camper regens health, turns off flinching and gives knockback resistance, so you arent forced to reposition/flee and your aim isnt gimped by anyone shooting you, aswell as maybe pyros having a harder time airblasting you off of cliffs, these are very good upsides

the razorback counters spy, one of snipers greatest foes, now you dont have to unscope to constantly worry about your back, the only downside being if the spy uses his gun, which fortunately puts him at risk of dying before killing you assuming your team is protecting you, this is a very nice upside

the new danger shield protects you from pyros, gone are the days of burning for 10 straight seconds everytime a flare is shot your way, also basically turns off the dragons fury

the old danger shield seems useless to me because 150HP doesnt actually help with ANY of snipers weaknesses, spy? doesn't matter how much health you have when he backstabs you. other snipers? 150HP is not enough to avoid a quickscope so it doesnt do jack against them, scouts? at point blank scout is gonna do over 200 damage in 2 shots, air strike soldiers? MAYBE it would help a small bit against surviving air strike rockets

the only 2 areas it would be useful in is 1. when your using the huntsman since your gonna be on the frontline, and 2. if we turned on the croc o style item set, which i would adore but is a total pipedream in our lord the year of 2026, since random has declared that all weapons in the set must be accurate to the sets time period which would nerf the sleeper and the LAST thing the sleeper needs is a nerf

however on the topic of item sets, i'd like to try the tank buster, at first i figured the battalions backup change would be a nerf but it has a very interesting upside i think, being that you only need to take 175 damage to fill the meter VS doing 600 damage
you would lose the extra 20 health and sentry damage resis for you team however by my calculations you would have an almost 3x faster charge meaning you could pop tons of charges all the time, and it came to me in a dream the other day that the whole set makes sense now, the black box doesnt make sense in tandom with the new battalions, but it makes perfect sense with the old battalions, shooting people gives you health back, which makes up for the damage required to have rage, that way you wont be at 25 health when your meter is full, its genius..............
and you would get a constant 20% resis to sentrys which is a nice bonus

PS please consider my backburner and splendid screen propositions

Yes, original danger shield is utter garbage, but you should consider thinking about the pre-Jungle Inferno version

I support the battalion's and tank buster

now see here huutti, in my reality where random is taken out by an 18 wheeler in a drunk driving "accident" and i take power, rename it to Carlstaway, and rule with an iron fist, we would use this version of the shield aswell as the current sleeper reverts but then turn on the croc o style set to create a unique playstyle where you are protected from headshots and bullet damage but become more exposed to explosive damage as a downside I.E: airstrike soldiers, bastard demomen
but alas, it was not meant to be...

[random]

Danger Shield had +15% bullet resist and +20% explosive resist besides 150hp, so you could tank quickscope. I think this version is too infamous to not include it.

Also is there a way to make weapons from sets act like they did before if they're used together? Or will it be too confusing?

I liked this version of the danger shield as well since it roughly gave you 175hp vs bullet, 150hp vs fire, and 125hp vs explosive (with the health and vulnerability cancelling out) and again reiterate that I think it's pretty much the pocket pistol for Sniper. It gets you past the breakpoint of being quickscoped which is the biggest thing, helps protect against Ambassador spies or just any spy with a gun, and harassment from hitscan classes like engineers/scouts with pistols, or heavies spraying from a distance to flinch you. It still leaves you weak to being bombed by soldiers and demos which is fine, and gives a small boost against pyros to help with flare spam. It helps close the gap against snipers that are much better than you, at a cost of being weaker at defending yourself (spies in close quarters, demo/soldier bombs without a jarate or smg, etc). If most people prefer the fire immunity that's fine but I think this one is more interesting because sniper vs sniper is a much more relevant matchup than sniper vs pyro

As for item sets, we actually sort of have this already. Currently the Saharan Spy set removes the cloak bonus from the L'Etranger only if you have the set active, otherwise the L'Etranger works as normal when using any other knife

[NeoTapp]

Oh shit, it's explosive vulnerability. Anyway I would still prefer this version if it will ever be reverted

[Gabber]

Danger Shield had +15% bullet resist and +20% explosive resist besides 150hp, so you could tank quickscope. I think this version is too infamous to not include it.

Also is there a way to make weapons from sets act like they did before if they're used together? Or will it be too confusing?

I liked this version of the danger shield as well since it roughly gave you 175hp vs bullet, 150hp vs fire, and 125hp vs explosive (with the health and vulnerability cancelling out) and again reiterate that I think it's pretty much the pocket pistol for Sniper. It gets you past the breakpoint of being quickscoped which is the biggest thing, helps protect against Ambassador spies or just any spy with a gun, and harassment from hitscan classes like engineers/scouts with pistols, or heavies spraying from a distance to flinch you. It still leaves you weak to being bombed by soldiers and demos which is fine, and gives a small boost against pyros to help with flare spam. It helps close the gap against snipers that are much better than you, at a cost of being weaker at defending yourself (spies in close quarters, demo/soldier bombs without a jarate or smg, etc). If most people prefer the fire immunity that's fine but I think this one is more interesting because sniper vs sniper is a much more relevant matchup than sniper vs pyro

As for item sets, we actually sort of have this already. Currently the Saharan Spy set removes the cloak bonus from the L'Etranger only if you have the set active, otherwise the L'Etranger works as normal when using any other knife

i cant have this again.jpg (12.24 KiB) Viewed 815 times

[random]

Just for the sake of it I'm going to enable three reverts

• Backburner: Back to +50hp version

• Battalions Backup: Charges on damage taken rather than damage dealt, 175 for a full charge. No +20 hp, and slightly less sentry resistance

• Tank buster: Black Box + Battalions Backup for 20% Sentry resistance

Edit: Battalions is on hold until plugin is fixed

[Gabber]

STOP!

[huutti]

still asking for pre-2014 grenades with 2 pipe loch

All Grenade Launchers - Reverted to pre-Smissmas 2014, +9% blast radius, 112 base damage with hit location variance (more damage near player's feet)
Loch-n-Load - Reverted to pre-Smissmas 2014, +20% damage, -50% clip size, +25% self damage, no radius penalty, grenades tumble

if were having revert stickies then we should have this too

[Gabber]

"hit location variance (more damage near player's feet)"

END IT KID!

[Suspicious Carl]

backburner kicks absolute ass, i will admit no airblast is a harsh downside for sure, and it takes some time to get used to, but once you do the payoff is great, that extra health rocks
i dont understand for the life of me why people perfer airblast version, its literally just a boring stock clone that crits from behind sometimes and lets you airblast 4 times (in the best case scenario) before shutting your weapon off, LAME!
the backburner is suppose to do what it advertises, burn the back, call it a gimmick weapon if you want but thats the POINT! theres nothing wrong with a weapon that leans into its intended role, you dont need airblast if your playing the weapon correctly by not being seen and ambushing the enemy from behind, where you are able to get crits and slaughter everyone, and the extra health allows you to survive said ambushes, IE: while your getting the crits, if an enemy and perhaps an explosive class turns around in time, when they shoot back at you uh oh! you have way more health then normal! so you can survive the ambush and get away scott free, its AWESOME!! if you want the other one pick stock or degreaser, dont ruin the backburner

also battalions backup im split on, the loss of 20 extra health is whatever, it doesn't save you that often (in my opinion), but the loss of sentry resistance for your team is for sure a major loss, the upside though is that it is DIRT easy to gain a charge, if you got a medic with you/are good at knowing when to back out of a fight, you can pop charges so much its insane, when i play with the set im able to pop charges like every 30 seconds, one time on pipeline i popped 3 charges in a row

i say it's alot of fun, keep it. But if people want vanilla back i propose give it the saharan spy treatment and have the reverted set activate only when the set is equipped

[NeoTapp]

backburner kicks absolute ass, i will admit no airblast is a harsh downside for sure, and it takes some time to get used to, but once you do the payoff is great, that extra health rocks
i dont understand for the life of me why people perfer airblast version, its literally just a boring stock clone that crits from behind sometimes and lets you airblast 4 times (in the best case scenario) before shutting your weapon off, LAME!
the backburner is suppose to do what it advertises, burn the back, call it a gimmick weapon if you want but thats the POINT! theres nothing wrong with a weapon that leans into its intended role, you dont need airblast if your playing the weapon correctly by not being seen and ambushing the enemy from behind, where you are able to get crits and slaughter everyone, and the extra health allows you to survive said ambushes, IE: while your getting the crits, if an enemy and perhaps an explosive class turns around in time, when they shoot back at you uh oh! you have way more health then normal! so you can survive the ambush and get away scott free, its AWESOME!! if you want the other one pick stock or degreaser, dont ruin the backburner

also battalions backup im split on, the loss of 20 extra health is whatever, it doesn't save you that often (in my opinion), but the loss of sentry resistance for your team is for sure a major loss, the upside though is that it is DIRT easy to gain a charge, if you got a medic with you/are good at knowing when to back out of a fight, you can pop charges so much its insane, when i play with the set im able to pop charges like every 30 seconds, one time on pipeline i popped 3 charges in a row

i say it's alot of fun, keep it. But if people want vanilla back i propose give it the saharan spy treatment and have the reverted set activate only when the set is equipped

Absolutely agree about backburner. Also it would be nice, if battalions backup became reverted only with black box.

[random]

Some notes on the changes

• Battalions: I like the battalions, you get it a lot more frequently at the cost of it being a bit weaker when you pop it but I'd say frequency far outweighs that. I find myself barely getting one or two banners a round on soldier normally just due to playing aggressive and dying as a result. I think the idea of a defensive banner building off the damage you take is perfect, it works as a sort of comeback mechanic if your team is getting their shit pushed in (seems almost like the intended use case originally). It makes me actually want to use this banner when I normally don't like them at all. Also if your major complaint about the battalions was the 20hp loss then to me that just sounds like you were using it for the hp and not the banner which further proves how underwhelming the banner is in it's current state

• Backburner: I don't really "mind" it in the sense that I don't use the thing, but I literally experienced yesterday multiple situations where I fired enough shots that would normally kill a pyro only for them to survive because of the backburner and end up killing me. Which admittedly was annoying because sometimes I time my shots or actions under the assumption that my attack is going to kill, and when it doesn't it throws everything off. I think unlike scout with the pbpp or sniper with the older danger shields, this does actually hit breakpoints (ie pyro can survive a caber, a crit melee swing, two direct rockets, two stickies, a shorter charged headshot, etc). I would be fine putting it back to 10% because of that but I understand if pyro players find it more fun to use

• Sandvich/Buffalo: I am not really a fan of the idea of the buffalo being the better "companion" weapon for healing teammates. It's been engraved into tf2 pop culture that you give sandviches to your teammates, and changing that is weird. I don't think the buffalo steak needs to lose its drop powers for this, I just think the sandvich should go back to being drop friendly because the infinite eating isn't as useful as you'd think because it requires you to be playing veeeery passive as heavy. We (perhaps unfortunately) have shifted the heavy meta in our servers to be a lot more aggressive due to being able to self heal with a drop, so anything that can't do that gets left behind, including the sandvich. Given that it has no other effects I think the sandvich should be THE healing item for heavy (we are ignoring the banana here) and relegating that role to the steak which already has a different niche is silly

[Suspicious Carl]

[*]Sandvich/Buffalo: I am not really a fan of the idea of the buffalo being the better "companion" weapon for healing teammates. It's been engraved into tf2 pop culture that you give sandviches to your teammates, and changing that is weird. I don't think the buffalo steak needs to lose its drop powers for this, I just think the sandvich should go back to being drop friendly because the infinite eating isn't as useful as you'd think because it requires you to be playing veeeery passive as heavy. We (perhaps unfortunately) have shifted the heavy meta in our servers to be a lot more aggressive due to being able to self heal with a drop, so anything that can't do that gets left behind, including the sandvich. Given that it has no other effects I think the sandvich should be THE healing item for heavy (we are ignoring the banana here) and relegating that role to the steak which already has a different niche is silly
[/list]

Reminder, come back to this after work
In the meantime, i disagree..

[Genuline]

Some notes on the changes

• Sandvich/Buffalo: I am not really a fan of the idea of the buffalo being the better "companion" weapon for healing teammates. It's been engraved into tf2 pop culture that you give sandviches to your teammates, and changing that is weird. I don't think the buffalo steak needs to lose its drop powers for this, I just think the sandvich should go back to being drop friendly because the infinite eating isn't as useful as you'd think because it requires you to be playing veeeery passive as heavy. We (perhaps unfortunately) have shifted the heavy meta in our servers to be a lot more aggressive due to being able to self heal with a drop, so anything that can't do that gets left behind, including the sandvich. Given that it has no other effects I think the sandvich should be THE healing item for heavy (we are ignoring the banana here) and relegating that role to the steak which already has a different niche is silly

the way you interact with lunchbox items on castaway is about throwing them to yourself instead of finding a safe place to eat them for their full benefits. this does encourage heavy players to be more ballsy because you can insta-heal half your health back with no risk involved compared to pausing and eating. throwing yourself a sandvich might sound like something you'd do in a pinch but it's very applicable to most situations and fights, there is no "rhythm" other players can follow by waiting for you to eat if you make a bad play. it's really hard to give that burst healing up for the dalokhos or second banana which I think are only left behind because they've remained modern, you can't throw them to yourself & even if you could it's only a small health pack. for balance sake all the lunchbox items would need to have the same rules IE heal teammates but not yourself, walk over to pick-up, passive recharge etc. the advantage the steak has over the sandvich right now is the passive recharge

all that said I still find using the old sandvich super fun & it's just from a whole different era compared to how lunchbox items are balanced today

[huutti]

I don't really care how the sandvich and steak are, my only issue with them is that they overshadow my beloved chocolate bar and I would support a blanket lunchbox revert even if it may be historically inaccurate for the lunchboxes that aren't sandvich or steak

[Suspicious Carl]

i really dont have the strength to go over it again but i must so dont expect this to be a well formatted response

sandvich doesnt make you passive, you just cant eat it in a crowd of 10 people with full health, you gotta find a good spot to eat, which isnt always easy but you would be surprised what you can get away with. depending on the state of the game you can get away with eating right next to the point, eating ON the point, you can kill 5 people and eat, you can run back and fourth getting one kill and eating, rinse & repeat, you can use it after a large battle to restore yourself, use it after losing a little health to top off, use it as a bailout (this one is extremely fun, i l love eating over and over until a teamate comes in the room and kills the enemy), and it STILL HAS A DROP BTW, its just not always reliable, but if your worried about a teammate or a medic as long as theres a kit nearby (any size) then your probably good. this thing is so beautifully designed its so versatile and it is delightful using and abusing it in all the different scenarios with all the different factors, its so much more fun then just getting 150hp every 30 seconds on a class that needs health constantly. making the decision of when to eat it vs when to drop it is also a fun dilemma, sometimes your running away and you gotta drop it down but now you must go find a way to replenish it etc...

as for the iconography part of it, your right, steak was never an iconic team weapon, but ill be real neither is the sandvich, on release and for OVER a year it didnt have a drop, it didnt even heal you to full, it was long after release they decided to give it a drop, turning it into the version we use now, and it took another full year for them to decide it should recharge, if we want to talk about how iconic it is to throw sandviches i would argue thats just lunchbox items in general, the thing everyone truly knows and loves it for is the eating, its the OM NOM NOM, the thing thats so iconic valve decided it needed to have its own meet the team video

we have a beautiful partnership on the server, we've been over this time and time and time again, the way things are right now EVERYONE WINS, it is a perfect yin and yang for those who value teamplay in the moment (with the added bonus of a helpful movement feature) and those who value versatility in the moment (mainly solo play but with a single drop just in case). the only people who dont like it this way (one guy, you know who) is actually braindead and is just salty he has to stare at a meat reskin instead.

why change this? for what? iconography? removing options because its not the first thing people think of when they think of the sandvich? when people think of the old reserve shooter everyone thinks about the version that gave minicrits for airblast, nobody thinks about the version that straight up minicrit all airborne targets, so why do we use it? when people think about the old loch and load, they think about the version with 2 shots and damage spread, how many people even know there was a 3 shot 120 damage version? so why do we use it? maybe it doesnt feel right for default TF2 but it feels damn good for castaway, and castaway is NOT normal TF2, it's enhanced TF2, a utopia away from the agony of worthless boring unlocks, unplayably short rounds and removal of integral social features, it is not reflective of any real era of TF2, rather a collective of every era's best concepts, all compressed into one beautiful space, it has long since been established we offer something you can't get anywhere else that while it isn't "old tf2" per say, is also far from custom balancing. it has long since been established that using the weapons of new and old, we have created our own unique playstyles and i really dont understand why we would change this. now instead of one useful/reliable medium health kit for yourself plus your team and one useful/reliable on demand health refill whenever you want it plus a slightly less reliable escape tool and health kit for your team, we have 2 useful/reliable medium health kits for yourself plus your team? i would argue doing this would make the steak a straight upgrade to the sandvich, since giving it a recharge makes the eating completely useless. why not take the on demand scout speed feature?

as for the dalokohs its just an unfortunate reality valve didnt do what they should have done from the beginning and have it just put you to 400hp, and fuck the gaynana

both of these changes have met very positive reception, i can only think of 2 people who outright dont like the sandvich change, dont let anyone tell you i dont use it either, it is easily my 2nd favorite revert on the server and i love it to death, it is one of the most fun, versatile, and helpful things i have ever had the pleasure of equipping in a video game

there is genuinely a physical anxiety response i get when i think about the idea of coming home from work one day and joining the server only to see it got re-reverted again
please dont do this

[random]

Making two changes

• Sandvich: Back to the self heal drop version with no infinite eating. Buffalo steak unchanged, so from a drop perspective they're now equal but you can full heal with the sandvich by eating. I don't like the buffalo being the better consistent healing item

• Backburner: Putting it at 20%. I think the damage is a placebo and there's not really any difference between the 10% and 20% ones but you tell me after trying it. I really didn't like the 50hp because it completely offsets all breakpoints pyro is normally supposed to die at

I think the battalions needs some more time in the oven to cook, I think people should give it a try. I might be biased but I barely ever see the thing get used normally and I'm seeing it more regularly now, people normally only seem to run buff or conch. But again, tell me your experience on this and what you think of it. Tank buster set bonus goes hand in hand with the battalions so if it stays, the set stays, if it goes, the set goes.

[Suspicious Carl]

whats the point of having a revert discussion thread if your input means fucking nothing? why should anyone bother to come here and give any thoughts on a revert if ultimately the fate of EVERYTHING on the server relies on your own opinion??

completely and utterly pointless change to satisfy 2 people who weren't smart enough to locate their secondary slot and find the meat

for the love of god man just leave it how it was

change the fists and gru while your at it heavy doesnt get to have fucking anything i guess

[Appolz (with a z)]

whats the point of having a revert discussion thread if your input means fucking nothing? why should anyone bother to come here and give any thoughts on a revert if ultimately the fate of EVERYTHING on the server relies on your own opinion??

completely and utterly pointless change to satisfy 2 people who weren't smart enough to locate their secondary slot and find the meat

for the love of god man just leave it how it was

change the fists and gru while your at it heavy doesnt get to have fucking anything i guess

Holy fuck you've sent carl into some kind of time warp where he gets to experience the feeling of walve nerfing shit in real time

when people think of the old reserve shooter everyone thinks about the version that gave minicrits for airblast, nobody thinks about the version that straight up minicrit all airborne targets
when people think about the old loch and load, they think about the version with 2 shots and damage spread, how many people even know there was a 3 shot 120 damage version?

I think about both of these things. The reserve shooter was not-so-secretly an anti-scunt weapon. I also had to install a mod that gave the loch 3 barrels because my autism couldn't handle the double barreled grenade launcher holding a magic 3rd grenade just 2 days after I started using it.

[Scout]

Making two changes

• Sandvich: Back to the self heal drop version with no infinite eating. Buffalo steak unchanged, so from a drop perspective they're now equal but you can full heal with the sandvich by eating. I don't like the buffalo being the better consistent healing item

• Backburner: Putting it at 20%. I think the damage is a placebo and there's not really any difference between the 10% and 20% ones but you tell me after trying it. I really didn't like the 50hp because it completely offsets all breakpoints pyro is normally supposed to die at

I think the battalions needs some more time in the oven to cook, I think people should give it a try. I might be biased but I barely ever see the thing get used normally and I'm seeing it more regularly now, people normally only seem to run buff or conch. But again, tell me your experience on this and what you think of it. Tank buster set bonus goes hand in hand with the battalions so if it stays, the set stays, if it goes, the set goes.

• Sandvich: I was fine with the old version, it was more unique but was still good. It's simple - Sandvich: better at healing yourself to full. Steak: better at healing yourself by half and healing teammates. It's not like the Sandvich can't do what the Steak can, it's just not as good as the Steak at some things. And there are some situations where eating is better than throwing to heal yourself, like if you're playing defensively without a Medic. Also a full agree with Carl's point about the Sandvich's iconography.
• Backburner: Sure, I can understand the +50 health being too much
• Backup/Tank Buster: Still don't know how I feel about it

[Pig]

This conversation is too long and complex for me to give a well-written response. But please put me down as 100% IN FAVOR of whatever steak/sanvich reverts CARL is proposing. For the month we had it, it worked great!!!!!!! It was fun for the heavy and his team, and even felt fair to play against. IT MADE THE GAME BETTER, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE TF2 "COMMUNITY" THINKS IS THE GOTO TEAMMATE HEALING (M2) LUNCHBOX.

[Asmo]

Making two changes

• Sandvich: Back to the self heal drop version with no infinite eating. Buffalo steak unchanged, so from a drop perspective they're now equal but you can full heal with the sandvich by eating. I don't like the buffalo being the better consistent healing item

I liked the April Fools Sandvich. You couild still drop it to self heal, which already made it much stronger than the vanilla Sandvich. Being able to eat it infinitely felt like it really set it apart from the Buffalo Steak.

[Gabber]

I'm mostly neutral on the sandvich issue, but i'll throw some token support in carl's favor, if we have someone this passionate for a revert that's arguably as good as another revert i think we should side with what the passionate players want since there's no other way they can play with this specific playstyle outside of Castaway. I will note, however that i've had to explain the sandvich not recharging on drop and the steak being better for that to about 6 separate non-regular players who were confused by this so the esotericism is a real issue.

[Suspicious Carl]

I over reacted with the hostility yesterday but my point still stands
Absolutely beautiful seeing my ngas pull up with the support
10<--- so far
The explaining it to people not in the know is a real thing but i feel its a small hurdle
#BBS

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

The current state of balance has destroyed spy's basic gameplay. It feels like spy is being forced into a gun playstyle because he can't make any plays on sentries or combos due to the new flame damage. The change to flame damage to remove damage ramp up based on flame density would work if the server was using pre JI flame particles however the server uses the JI flame particles which means pyro just instantly kills a spy even with a DR. The reverted Dead Ringer is completely useless because the main downside it has is now over exposed due to the flame particles. The only counter to this is using the Spycicle but 2 seconds of flame immunity literally means nothing when pyro is doing ₆₀ damage per second with the fact they don't have to travel far to keep flames on you. The old Spycicle was 3 seconds of flame immunity and this didn't work because Pyros just learned to throw flames. This sentiment persists in the current day and is encouraged by JI flames.

Hence, there is no getting away from a pyro as a spy which means if a pyro stations themselves on a sentry there is nothing the spy can really do. I've hated having to wait for ubers because there's absolutely no opportunity to go for a sentry with a pyro on it without just throwing my own life away. Not even the high damage resistance of the Dead Ringer can stop flames which should tell you all you need to know about the current state of Pyro's flames. Before you tell me "Erm just shoot them" that doesn't work with post JI flames since they travel extremely far to the point where you will always be trying to fight against flinching due to flames. This makes headshots with the ambassador less consistent when they're needed most. Something that could actually turn into a skillful moment is drowned by the fact that pyro can just hold M1 and now block both your view of him and your steady aim on him.

I think that the current damage with pyro's flames is on the extreme side of things, however I'm more in favor of buffing spy's overall flame immunity. The Spycicle needs something else to make it worth using since the flame immunity just means you die a little bit later instead of immediately. It's boring gameplay and makes me wish I was using the current day Dead Ringer for its speed and afterburn immunity. At least there it feels like there is some chance you can get away instead of the pyro retard walking at the spy for another 3 seconds until their immunity wears off. Honestly it would be great if the Dead Ringer with a stock knife could be used without knowing you're immediately dead if you ever get lit on fire even once. The Spycicle doesn't alleviate this problem, it just delays it.

Going back to the Dead Ringer in general, I think the pre GM version of it is significantly worse than its current state and that's specifically because my argument above. The high resistance of the reverted DR isn't fun to play against and it doesn't do much for spy's main problem areas. Overall, the hatred for the pre GM Dead Ringer is that high resistance paired with its rechargeability. Most spy problems with the pre GM Dead Ringer is that it's not a safe escape tool rather it's a positioning tool that it already outclassed by stock invis. The current Dead Ringer has the issue of lacking a recharge and forcing spies into a timed pattern that is far too easy to counter. Hence, the Dead Ringer can be fixed if it trades that damage resistance for speed and rechargeability. I think the Dead Ringer should be charged by ammo packs but at the cost of less resistance. It's not a tanking tool against a whole team, it's just meant to take the first shot that flies at you once you get a backstab and give you a means to escape if you're smart with your movement. This would make the Dead Ringer not nearly as much of a nuisance since it can be tracked to the next nearest ammo pack added to the fact that the spy can also play around certain ammo locations in the same game of prediction you have against normal invis spies.

[Asmo]

The current state of balance has destroyed spy's basic gameplay. It feels like spy is being forced into a gun playstyle because he can't make any plays on sentries or combos due to the new flame damage. The change to flame damage to remove damage ramp up based on flame density would work if the server was using pre JI flame particles however the server uses the JI flame particles which means pyro just instantly kills a spy even with a DR. The reverted Dead Ringer is completely useless because the main downside it has is now over exposed due to the flame particles. The only counter to this is using the Spycicle but 2 seconds of flame immunity literally means nothing when pyro is doing ₆₀ damage per second with the fact they don't have to travel far to keep flames on you. The old Spycicle was 3 seconds of flame immunity and this didn't work because Pyros just learned to throw flames. This sentiment persists in the current day and is encouraged by JI flames.

I've heard before that the changes we've made to Pyro's Flamethrowers are are custom and that they've never dealt as much damage, in any version of the game, as they do on Castaway. Pyro is one of my least played classes and I don't play Casual, so I wouldn't know. Can you elaborate a little bit more on what the issue with Pyro's Flamethrower's is? What's the difference between JI and pre JI flame particles?

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

The current state of balance has destroyed spy's basic gameplay. It feels like spy is being forced into a gun playstyle because he can't make any plays on sentries or combos due to the new flame damage. The change to flame damage to remove damage ramp up based on flame density would work if the server was using pre JI flame particles however the server uses the JI flame particles which means pyro just instantly kills a spy even with a DR. The reverted Dead Ringer is completely useless because the main downside it has is now over exposed due to the flame particles. The only counter to this is using the Spycicle but 2 seconds of flame immunity literally means nothing when pyro is doing ₆₀ damage per second with the fact they don't have to travel far to keep flames on you. The old Spycicle was 3 seconds of flame immunity and this didn't work because Pyros just learned to throw flames. This sentiment persists in the current day and is encouraged by JI flames.

I've heard before that the changes we've made to Pyro's Flamethrowers are are custom and that they've never dealt as much damage, in any version of the game, as they do on Castaway. Pyro is one of my least played classes and I don't play Casual, so I wouldn't know. Can you elaborate a little bit more on what the issue with Pyro's Flamethrower's is? What's the difference between JI and pre JI flame particles?

Here's Pyro's orginal Flames for Comparison

Protons shows the flame difference pretty clearly here and the description explains everything. Post March 2018 there was no incentive to actually stack up flames. Old pyro videos show pyros making things like flame traps (1) which took the fact that flames were less dense pre JI (2) and used them to set up flare shots. Although this was still relatively easy to do, there was clear counterplay and the only issue was that most of the flame hitboxes weren't actually visible. The only thing they really needed to do to fix pyro flames was actually extend the visual model to each hitbox instead of adjust the flame density and the velocity of particles. Post JI flame particles that ignore ramp up now make it possible to kill someone with one flame particle (3). This is why pyros ended up just turning into spinbots since the particles did full damage regardless of density and thus meant any flame particle was going to do max damage. This is why you see instances like this (4) which was later fixed by the flame damage ramp up. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind reverting this change other than making pyro even more braindead. A phlog pyro can now have crit particles that instant kill without even looking at a player thanks Jungle Inferno.

References

[random]

I definitely want to make sure the flames we have are accurate and it's not overdamaging, trouble is how to fix this. Reverting flame mechanics is not trivial so I don't know how to approach the problem

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

I definitely want to make sure the flames we have are accurate and it's not overdamaging, trouble is how to fix this. Reverting flame mechanics is not trivial so I don't know how to approach the problem

I think readding the particle density requirement would fix this. I'm not sure when this was changed in the server settings. Is there a log for server balance changes?