Weapon Reverts Megathread

[random]

I think readding the particle density requirement would fix this. I'm not sure when this was changed in the server settings. Is there a log for server balance changes?

The idea was to revert the blue moon flame nerf and bring the flames back to what they were when JI first dropped. Would have been at some point last year

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

I think readding the particle density requirement would fix this. I'm not sure when this was changed in the server settings. Is there a log for server balance changes?

The idea was to revert the blue moon flame nerf and bring the flames back to what they were when JI first dropped. Would have been at some point last year

The issue were flames were extremely broken when JI first dropped. The videos I posted show this. The new particles broke much of how pyro's flame damage was intended to work originally. There was latter a March 28, 2018 update that explained why flamethrowers were nerfed.

Flamethrowers were able to do full damage regardless of the spread of their flames, rewarding maximizing flame spread over focusing on a target. We've made changes geared toward preserving the current damage range of flamethrowers, but requiring better aim to do so.
Flame damage per second now ramps up based on density of flame encountered, up to 200%
Initial flame damage per second reduced by 50%, resulting in the max damage being unchanged

I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?

[Suspicious Carl]

The idea was to revert the blue moon flame nerf and bring the flames back to what they were when JI first dropped. Would have been at some point last year

The issue were flames were extremely broken when JI first dropped. The videos I posted show this. The new particles broke much of how pyro's flame damage was intended to work originally. There was latter a March 28, 2018 update that explained why flamethrowers were nerfed.

Flamethrowers were able to do full damage regardless of the spread of their flames, rewarding maximizing flame spread over focusing on a target. We've made changes geared toward preserving the current damage range of flamethrowers, but requiring better aim to do so.
Flame damage per second now ramps up based on density of flame encountered, up to 200%
Initial flame damage per second reduced by 50%, resulting in the max damage being unchanged

I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?

the current flame is broken the rampup doesnt work and constantly resets itself so your never actually getting full damage

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

The issue were flames were extremely broken when JI first dropped. The videos I posted show this. The new particles broke much of how pyro's flame damage was intended to work originally. There was latter a March 28, 2018 update that explained why flamethrowers were nerfed.

I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?

the current flame is broken the rampup doesnt work and constantly resets itself so your never actually getting full damage

Pyro still does approx 65+ damage per second

[random]

I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?

If I recall the discussion when this was originally being worked on, it was regarding trying to get flamethrowers back to pre-JI and this was seen as a decent workaround since a full revert is very involved. I'm impartial because I don't play pyro but I'd prefer flames being how they were pre-JI as that's the era of the game we are trying to emulate

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?

If I recall the discussion when this was originally being worked on, it was regarding trying to get flamethrowers back to pre-JI and this was seen as a decent workaround since a full revert is very involved. I'm impartial because I don't play pyro but I'd prefer flames being how they were pre-JI as that's the era of the game we are trying to emulate

If that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.

[protons]

If that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.

That task is more trouble than it's worth, since it is not just the damage itself that changed from the pre-JI flamethrower, but also the way how the flame particles themselves moved.

Because the particles moved differently back then, it also made the damage and how it was dealt different. Back then you could peek a corner and destroy a sentry by just putting your crosshair just inches away from the corner.

Fully reverting back to the pre-Jungle Inferno Flamethrower and its mechanics is a monumental and difficult task. NotnHeavy used to have a separate plugin for reverting to pre-JI flames, but that plugin has been abandoned, broken beyond repair, and is hard to understand. The easiest way to revert it is to fully modify the source code of the game itself but even that is hard. Trying to do it via SourceMod is already a big ask. Unfortunately, NotnHeavy has disappeared from the internet forever as of the time of this writing.

As for the plugin changelog, it is somewhere in the GitHub Wiki pages of the plugin repository. The changelog goes all the way back to 2024.

Currently, the only choices here are 1. keep the flamethrower revert, 2. revert the Dead Ringer back to pre-2013 which had a flat 90% dmg resist regardless of damage taken so you don't melt from Pyros instantly at close range (or revert it to release day 0 which had no recharge cooldown practically), and 3. un-revert the flamethrower; unless someone with a giant brain manages to restore NotnHeavy's old pre-JI Flamethrower plugin and we can finally get back pre-JI flames.

Part of the reason why the Flamethrower was reverted was because the reverted Dragon's Fury was already dominating it in terms of DPS, and the post Blue Moon flamethrower is just really weak because of the flame ramp up mechanic. Because of those nerfs, Pyro was seen as the class with the weakest damage output.

[huutti]

If that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.

That task is more trouble than it's worth, since it is not just the damage itself that changed from the pre-JI flamethrower, but also the way how the flame particles themselves moved.

Because the particles moved differently back then, it also made the damage and how it was dealt different. Back then you could peek a corner and destroy a sentry by just putting your crosshair just inches away from the corner.

Fully reverting back to the pre-Jungle Inferno Flamethrower and its mechanics is a monumental and difficult task. NotnHeavy used to have a separate plugin for reverting to pre-JI flames, but that plugin has been abandoned, broken beyond repair, and is hard to understand. The easiest way to revert it is to fully modify the source code of the game itself but even that is hard. Trying to do it via SourceMod is already a big ask. Unfortunately, NotnHeavy has disappeared from the internet forever as of the time of this writing.

As for the plugin changelog, it is somewhere in the GitHub Wiki pages of the plugin repository. The changelog goes all the way back to 2024.

Currently, the only choices here are 1. keep the flamethrower revert, 2. revert the Dead Ringer back to pre-2013 which had a flat 90% dmg resist regardless of damage taken so you don't melt from Pyros instantly at close range (or revert it to release day 0 which had no recharge cooldown practically), and 3. un-revert the flamethrower; unless someone with a giant brain manages to restore NotnHeavy's old pre-JI Flamethrower plugin and we can finally get back pre-JI flames.

Part of the reason why the Flamethrower was reverted was because the reverted Dragon's Fury was already dominating it in terms of DPS, and the post Blue Moon flamethrower is just really weak because of the flame ramp up mechanic. Because of those nerfs, Pyro was seen as the class with the weakest damage output.

I haven't yet attempted to seriously tackle the flame plugin, I guess now will have to do

EDIT: Got it working

[Suspicious Carl]

Shiieeet i really like the JI flame buffs i think the dead ringer should just get that double revert from protons, or the one that doesnt even have a shutter

[Suspicious Carl]

day 4
#10supporters

[SnK | Snakes and Knives]

If that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.

That task is more trouble than it's worth, since it is not just the damage itself that changed from the pre-JI flamethrower, but also the way how the flame particles themselves moved.

Because the particles moved differently back then, it also made the damage and how it was dealt different. Back then you could peek a corner and destroy a sentry by just putting your crosshair just inches away from the corner.

Fully reverting back to the pre-Jungle Inferno Flamethrower and its mechanics is a monumental and difficult task. NotnHeavy used to have a separate plugin for reverting to pre-JI flames, but that plugin has been abandoned, broken beyond repair, and is hard to understand. The easiest way to revert it is to fully modify the source code of the game itself but even that is hard. Trying to do it via SourceMod is already a big ask. Unfortunately, NotnHeavy has disappeared from the internet forever as of the time of this writing.

As for the plugin changelog, it is somewhere in the GitHub Wiki pages of the plugin repository. The changelog goes all the way back to 2024.

Currently, the only choices here are 1. keep the flamethrower revert, 2. revert the Dead Ringer back to pre-2013 which had a flat 90% dmg resist regardless of damage taken so you don't melt from Pyros instantly at close range (or revert it to release day 0 which had no recharge cooldown practically), and 3. un-revert the flamethrower; unless someone with a giant brain manages to restore NotnHeavy's old pre-JI Flamethrower plugin and we can finally get back pre-JI flames.

Part of the reason why the Flamethrower was reverted was because the reverted Dragon's Fury was already dominating it in terms of DPS, and the post Blue Moon flamethrower is just really weak because of the flame ramp up mechanic. Because of those nerfs, Pyro was seen as the class with the weakest damage output.

Thank you for explaining this. The changes make a lot more sense now. It's definitely a monumental task to get flames working again so instead of nerfing one side buffing the other might be a better solution if the plugin is unavailable. I still think that version of the Dead Ringer would be problematic but it would help recreate the time period that Random mentioned earlier. I still think that would make stock invis fall off in usage which I'm not a huge advocate of but maybe there's a way to adjust cloak resistance in general to leave invis still an attractive option.

[random]

Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the battalions? I would like to make a decision whether to keep it or not. I like it but I'm sure others use it a lot more than I do so feedback appreciated now that we have had much more time to try it

[huutti]

Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the battalions? I would like to make a decision whether to keep it or not. I like it but I'm sure others use it a lot more than I do so feedback appreciated now that we have had much more time to try it

It's a lot easier to get a full banner, which alone is more fun to use. I haven't really missed the +20 HP bonus, as the Concheror is better suited for self-longevity. It also makes for interesting mind games where you willingly put yourself into enemy fire to try charge your banner

[Suspicious Carl]

Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the battalions? I would like to make a decision whether to keep it or not. I like it but I'm sure others use it a lot more than I do so feedback appreciated now that we have had much more time to try it

it kicks ass

[Suspicious Carl]

Happy 2nd Castaway, will today be the day?
#day19
#11supporters

[DelabLeFou]

Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the battalions? I would like to make a decision whether to keep it or not. I like it but I'm sure others use it a lot more than I do so feedback appreciated now that we have had much more time to try it

Remove it and remove the conch revert too, both are inferior to the modern version

[Hompo]

If you want to change the cow mangler into a "powerful reverts" version for the birthday event, consider adding the release version where it had 5 rockets and had no damage or reload penalty. They added the damage and reload penalty 2 days later BUT since were doing the powerful versions I don't think that matters.

Here are my sources that this did exist

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Cow_ ... te_history

[huutti]

Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the battalions? I would like to make a decision whether to keep it or not. I like it but I'm sure others use it a lot more than I do so feedback appreciated now that we have had much more time to try it

It's a lot easier to get a full banner, which alone is more fun to use. I haven't really missed the +20 HP bonus, as the Concheror is better suited for self-longevity. It also makes for interesting mind games where you willingly put yourself into enemy fire to try charge your banner

On second thought, I'm not sure if it's better for the game. Charging the banner via damage taken is inherently more risky and I found myself dying many times on a full banner. It basically forces the user into peeking around a corner to charge the banner not unlike how it's also in vanilla. I would change it back

[random]

Reposting changes from the birthday thread

• Short circuit - primary fire destroys projectiles (costs 5 metal + 15 per projectile destroyed)

• Dead Ringer - the version we use now, but with the added bonus of taking damage doesn't reduce your damage reduction

• Sandvich - Back to the infinite eat

• Battalions/Tank Buster - Unreverted, if you felt strongly about the revert try the vanilla again and see if your opinion changes. Preferably if you actually like using the banner itself and not just to have it as a +20hp passive

[slitti]

i like the reverted battalions better it was more unique to the other banners. blowing ur horn a lot is also fun

[Suspicious Carl]

i agree with slitti i think reverted battalions is far more useful because you can pop it like crazy, yea your team doesnt get the extra sentry damage resis but its so easy to kill sentrys on castaway anyway and you can pop a charge like every 20 seconds if your playing it right, if you got a medic up your ass you can literally pop a charge then get hit with a stray crit or body shot or something and instantly have it again then pop then some heavy shoots you then you pop a third time its crazy work

if people are split on it though would you be interested in it only activating when using the set like saharan letrange?

[random]

i agree with slitti i think reverted battalions is far more useful because you can pop it like crazy, yea your team doesnt get the extra sentry damage resis but its so easy to kill sentrys on castaway anyway and you can pop a charge like every 20 seconds if your playing it right, if you got a medic up your ass you can literally pop a charge then get hit with a stray crit or body shot or something and instantly have it again then pop then some heavy shoots you then you pop a third time its crazy work

if people are split on it though would you be interested in it only activating when using the set like saharan letrange?

I want people who didn't like it to have given this version a try and to now go back to vanilla and see if they prefer it. I like the revert better as well and we can go back if there's no strong opinions to stay vanilla

[Gabber]

i dont think the tranny ringer that tanks backstabs should be even tankier tbqhfam

[SomethingSomethingSomething]

I've heard before that the changes we've made to Pyro's Flamethrowers are are custom and that they've never dealt as much damage, in any version of the game, as they do on Castaway. Pyro is one of my least played classes and I don't play Casual, so I wouldn't know. Can you elaborate a little bit more on what the issue with Pyro's Flamethrower's is? What's the difference between JI and pre JI flame particles?

Protons shows the flame difference pretty clearly here and the description explains everything. Post March 2018 there was no incentive to actually stack up flames. Old pyro videos show pyros making things like flame traps (1) which took the fact that flames were less dense pre JI (2) and used them to set up flare shots. Although this was still relatively easy to do, there was clear counterplay and the only issue was that most of the flame hitboxes weren't actually visible. The only thing they really needed to do to fix pyro flames was actually extend the visual model to each hitbox instead of adjust the flame density and the velocity of particles. Post JI flame particles that ignore ramp up now make it possible to kill someone with one flame particle (3). This is why pyros ended up just turning into spinbots since the particles did full damage regardless of density and thus meant any flame particle was going to do max damage. This is why you see instances like this (4) which was later fixed by the flame damage ramp up. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind reverting this change other than making pyro even more braindead. A phlog pyro can now have crit particles that instant kill without even looking at a player thanks Jungle Inferno.

This is probably a late response to an old convo but I think their is a TFtuber disinformation campaign that infects people's brain with PDS (Pyro Derangement Syndrome) which has lead to multiple reworks of the class itself. There used to be a Scout Derangement Syndrome until BFB and Sandman got nerfed. Lately there has been a Sniper Derangement Syndrome as well.
Pyro being able to do roughly the same DPS as a soldier or less than a demo at the same range when he has less robust movement options is outrageous. As the meta stands: Soldier Scout and Demo all have great options to deal with Pyro (vanilla and reverted.)
The Blue Moon Flames Nerf (nerf because the ramp up is broken) was devastating to the class and I believe ignored the point of Pyro entirely to appease the long standing community PDS, focusing down on single targets was the point of combo Pyro (ie close range burst damage inbetween a scout's point blank damage and Spy's Backstab.)
Stock Flamethrower is supposed to be more dynamic than combo, to be more dynamic it needs to be able to deal with multiple enemies at a time not focus down one.
Modern TFtubers have sold this idea of Stock Pyro as actually just a support class when in reality he is supposed to be an tweener of a Scout and Demo. Instead of the ability to double jump and dodge say Projectiles he reflects them or dodges them using The Gas Jockey's Gear item set which is by far the most critial issue Castaway faces as we all know. Instead of a sticky trap, he's a kamikaze pilot.
You see this design in his unlocks and a similar logic for other classes unlocks, Backburner and Phog lean more into kamikaze, Degreaser and Dragon's Fury lean into the bite sized encounters similar but different from the scout. (Dragon's Fury feels more like a Pyro version of the BFB or Air Strike, anyway.) Lets apply this to Spy, Spy has survivablity issues, Enforcer and Amby lean into Gun Spy for when close range classes like scout and pyro are in abundance and knife unlocks that encourage more plotting rather than risk taking.
The primary reason Castaway's Revert Balancing feels more right and the many other rebalancing servers feel wrong is because the "community" doesn't play the game or video games in general. So they get their opinion from E-celebs who make essay's over analysing weapons or individual mechanics without understanding what or why certain weapons were added.

[huutti]

i dont think the tranny ringer that tanks backstabs should be even tankier tbqhfam

this. killing tranny ringers already takes long enough, no need to make it take even longer

Yes the pomson rapes it, but I shouldn't have to go pomson every time there's a dr monkey

[random]

i dont think the tranny ringer that tanks backstabs should be even tankier tbqhfam

this. killing tranny ringers already takes long enough, no need to make it take even longer

Yes the pomson rapes it, but I shouldn't have to go pomson every time there's a dr monkey

It would be a good time to try the version the spy mains want then with the speed boost

[Gabber]

do that

[Suspicious Carl]

i like this ringer alot but im not a spy main so wat do i know

[random]

Alright let's just try the speed ringer. I had better not regret this and wake up to a dozen messages complaining

Also now that I have turned back the battalions for a few days to get the vanilla back, would anyone like to share opinions? Because so far I don't see anyone preferring this version (vanilla), I've only heard people want the previous version back and I tend to agree since it was more unique and interesting

[huutti]

Alright let's just try the speed ringer. I had better not regret this and wake up to a dozen messages complaining

Also now that I have turned back the battalions for a few days to get the vanilla back, would anyone like to share opinions? Because so far I don't see anyone preferring this version (vanilla), I've only heard people want the previous version back and I tend to agree since it was more unique and interesting

Pre-JI ringer to be exact?

Also, I'm indifferent on the battalions, if we go revert then so be it