Weapon Reverts Megathread

[random]

This topic will be used for discussion of Castaway Weapon Reverts.

Useful Links

• Active Reverts
• Reverts Changelog
• Comprehensive Revert List available in the plugin

[huutti]

Gonna relay this here

I suggest trying out the pre-Blue Moon pocket pistol with up to +7 health on hit. The healing isn't insignificant unlike the vanilla version and due to its faster fire rate it has potential for great burst damage. It could pair well with sodapopper minicrits

I know everyone likes the current revert and I'm not saying we should permanently switch to using this. Just want to see it out of curiosity

[protons]

can we have the item set bonuses for soldier, demo, heavy, and medic back? spy already has it with the modern letranger
pyro and sniper sets are questionable though

[huutti]

can we have the item set bonuses for soldier, demo, heavy, and medic back? spy already has it with the modern letranger
pyro and sniper sets are questionable though

i'd say to just add the sniper set too, pyro set is redundant because of powerjack speed

[Suspicious Carl]

can we have the item set bonuses for soldier, demo, heavy, and medic back? spy already has it with the modern letranger
pyro and sniper sets are questionable though

i'd say to just add the sniper set too, pyro set is redundant because of powerjack speed

i agree with this 100%, add back every item set but pyro, im itching to get my hands on tank buster and croc o style

[protons]

also can we try out the pre-gun mettle vaccinator, it seems interesting to use when i tested it on a bot server

[Pasta]

i'd say to just add the sniper set too, pyro set is redundant because of powerjack speed

i agree with this 100%, add back every item set but pyro, im itching to get my hands on tank buster and croc o style

dont add the croc set bro sniper being immune to one of his few direct counters is retarded

[Appolz (with a z)]

dont add the croc set bro sniper being immune to one of his few direct counters is retarded

nigga you run vac

[Pig]

I am in favor of TESTING item sets, but we should be very intentional about the weapon versions we use. I don't see a problem with custom balancing (ie. one update's item set bonus with different a patch's weapon stats). I think people in favor of item sets should propose particular versions of the weapons/set bonuses that they would like to see, so that the admin knows which versions people are more likely to enjoy in a test.

[Scout]

Since we already have the Saharan Spy set alongside the vanilla L'Etranger, I suppose I'd be alright with at least testing the Demo/Heavy/Sniper item sets. I don't want the others because their set bonuses all overlap with one of the weapons in their set (e.g. you would get sentry resistance from both the Battalion's Backup and the Tank Buster set bonus).

[mirajaded]

i agree with this 100%, add back every item set but pyro, im itching to get my hands on tank buster and croc o style

i'm all for trying out tank buster but (correct me if i'm wrong) i thought we already tried croc-o-style around a year ago and it was removed because of people finding it annoying. still open to testing it out again, but i wouldn't count on it being a permanent thing

[Gabber]

we've been over this shit 10 times KID
no more item sets, because you have to change/ruin the balancing for the weapons for them to even be accurate, no one wants the fucking old brazilian's backup just so they can play with some shit nothingburger of a set
and no lil nigga we are not doing custom balancing

[random]

So far we have only reverted item sets that lost something in the changeover. In the July 10 2013 patch, all set bonuses were removed and promptly moved to the items themselves, except for a few.

Special Delivery
The set bonus gave +25 hp, after the patch it was removed and the Shortstop inherited a 20% increased healing rate. This was later removed

Tank Buster
The set bonus gave 20% sentry resistance, after the patch it was removed and the Battalions Backup inherited a 15% damage reduction to sentries for everyone in your buff, not just you

Gas Jockey
The set bonus gave 10% movement speed and 10% bullet vulnerability, after the patch it was removed and the Powerjack inherited a 15% movement speed increase and 20% damage vulnerability

Croc-o-Style
The set bonus gave headshot immunity (you couldn't be killed by a headshot, would take 149 for example), after the patch it was removed and the Danger shield inherited a 15% bullet resistance and 20% explosive resistance

Saharan Spy
The set bonus gave reduced decloak sound and 0.5s longer cloak blink time, after the patch it was removed and nothing inherited it, but the L'Etranger was given a 40% increased cloak duration

Expert's Ordnance
The set bonus gave 10% fire damage resistance, after the patch nothing inherited it

Hibernating Bear
The set bonus gave 5% crit resistance, after the patch nothing inherited it though the Brass Beast would go on to receive a 20% damage reduction bonus in Gun Mettle

Medieval Medic
The set bonus gave +1 health regen, after the patch nothing inherited it, though the Amputator would go on to receive a +3 regen while active bonus and -20% damage penalty in the Two Cities update


Overall for the sets that actually matter the most, either we already have them reverted or one of the involved weapons now has a related stat on it. For example if we gave the pyro the gas jockey, it would stack with the existing powerjack, either that or we'd need to set it up so that the powerjack does not get it's own bonus when used with the set. Similar applies to the Tank Buster, Medieval Medic, and Hibernating Bear. The Expert's Ordnance is too minor to really count, and we already tried the post-polycount Croc-o-style and it wasn't liked very much.

On that note, we actually do have an inaccuracy here which is that the L'Etranger received increased cloak as compensation for losing Saharan Spy, but we brought back the set without removing the bonus.

Within the plugin, we have the ability to tweak weapons so that only when used in the set they lose those extra bonuses, for example we have a Saharan version that removes the L'Etranger cloak bonus but only when you also have the YER equipped, and it otherwise applies. It's not active on the servers but it's in the plugin

I am not in favor of trying or adding any of the other sets because they're either too minor to make a difference or would just conflict with existing items to make far more overpowered combinations.

[Pig]

we've been over this shit 10 times KID
no more item sets, because you have to change/ruin the balancing for the weapons for them to even be accurate, no one wants the fucking old brazilian's backup just so they can play with some shit nothingburger of a set
and no lil nigga we are not doing custom balancing

Hey “lil nigga”, we already do custom balancing. The admins even called it that. That’s not controversial or up to debate. As soon as you mix and match weapon stats from different eras of tf2, you are doing custom balancing. Like it or not.

[Scout]

Within the plugin, we have the ability to tweak weapons so that only when used in the set they lose those extra bonuses, for example we have a Saharan version that removes the L'Etranger cloak bonus but only when you also have the YER equipped, and it otherwise applies. It's not active on the servers but it's in the plugin

Yeah, I'd prefer that version. The current version being historically inaccurate is the only reason why I'm even entertaining the idea of more item sets.

[random]

I am making two changes which we are going to try out.

• Pretty boy's pocket pistol reverted to pre-blue moon, which is the modern one but instead of +3 health per hit, it's +7. I'm interested if this makes it good enough to surpass the 15 hp pocket pistol or not
• Saharan Spy Historical Accuracy, this makes the L'Etranger not give a cloak bonus only when used in the saharan set, it still gives the cloak bonus if used with a regular knife.

[mirajaded]

• Pretty boy's pocket pistol reverted to pre-blue moon, which is the modern one but instead of +3 health per hit, it's +7. I'm interested if this makes it good enough to surpass the 15 hp pocket pistol or not

standalone, with stock scattergun and pbpp, this one you've implemented is debatable, but the only reason I'd use it is that the fast firing speed is kinda fun. because the BFB exists, the whole reason the old pocket pistol existed was to combo with it, and it was perfect for that.

[Pig]

• Saharan Spy Historical Accuracy, this makes the L'Etranger not give a cloak bonus only when used in the saharan set, it still gives the cloak bonus if used with a regular knife.

I oppose this change on the grounds that it’s probably not a good idea to make weapon stats dynamic if other players can’t tell which version you have when you have that weapon out. In this instance the game impact is tiny, but there are other item sets where knowing how a weapon is changed is important, which you couldn’t see unless the player used the other weapons in your sight.

Valve got around this back in the day because the item sets required a cosmetic, and the secondaries often appeared on the back of the player model when not in use. Nowadays we have so many body cosmetics that its harder to tell when a soldier is using a backup, or a sniper is using the DDS for example.

[Pig]

Gas Jockey
The set bonus gave 10% movement speed and 10% bullet vulnerability, after the patch it was removed and the Powerjack inherited a 15% movement speed increase and 20% damage vulnerability

Hibernating Bear
The set bonus gave 5% crit resistance, after the patch nothing inherited it though the Brass Beast would go on to receive a 20% damage reduction bonus in Gun Mettle

If any item sets were brought back, I could genuinely support these, on the grounds that they would actually be a nerf to the items in question (the powerjack and the brass beast), by splitting their buffs off and forcing players to use less powerful weapons with them (such as the degreaser and the eviction notice). In either case, reverting the item set bonus would actually be a NERF to a weapon in the set. This might be a fairer way to debuff some powerful weapons by giving players a way to earn them back, by adopting different weapons than they’d normally use.

[Suspicious Carl]

So far we have only reverted item sets that lost something in the changeover. In the July 10 2013 patch, all set bonuses were removed and promptly moved to the items themselves, except for a few.

Special Delivery
The set bonus gave +25 hp, after the patch it was removed and the Shortstop inherited a 20% increased healing rate. This was later removed

Tank Buster
The set bonus gave 20% sentry resistance, after the patch it was removed and the Battalions Backup inherited a 15% damage reduction to sentries for everyone in your buff, not just you

Gas Jockey
The set bonus gave 10% movement speed and 10% bullet vulnerability, after the patch it was removed and the Powerjack inherited a 15% movement speed increase and 20% damage vulnerability

Croc-o-Style
The set bonus gave headshot immunity (you couldn't be killed by a headshot, would take 149 for example), after the patch it was removed and the Danger shield inherited a 15% bullet resistance and 20% explosive resistance

Saharan Spy
The set bonus gave reduced decloak sound and 0.5s longer cloak blink time, after the patch it was removed and nothing inherited it, but the L'Etranger was given a 40% increased cloak duration

Expert's Ordnance
The set bonus gave 10% fire damage resistance, after the patch nothing inherited it

Hibernating Bear
The set bonus gave 5% crit resistance, after the patch nothing inherited it though the Brass Beast would go on to receive a 20% damage reduction bonus in Gun Mettle

Medieval Medic
The set bonus gave +1 health regen, after the patch nothing inherited it, though the Amputator would go on to receive a +3 regen while active bonus and -20% damage penalty in the Two Cities update


Overall for the sets that actually matter the most, either we already have them reverted or one of the involved weapons now has a related stat on it. For example if we gave the pyro the gas jockey, it would stack with the existing powerjack, either that or we'd need to set it up so that the powerjack does not get it's own bonus when used with the set. Similar applies to the Tank Buster, Medieval Medic, and Hibernating Bear. The Expert's Ordnance is too minor to really count, and we already tried the post-polycount Croc-o-style and it wasn't liked very much.

On that note, we actually do have an inaccuracy here which is that the L'Etranger received increased cloak as compensation for losing Saharan Spy, but we brought back the set without removing the bonus.

Within the plugin, we have the ability to tweak weapons so that only when used in the set they lose those extra bonuses, for example we have a Saharan version that removes the L'Etranger cloak bonus but only when you also have the YER equipped, and it otherwise applies. It's not active on the servers but it's in the plugin

I am not in favor of trying or adding any of the other sets because they're either too minor to make a difference or would just conflict with existing items to make far more overpowered combinations.

At least with croc o style none of the weapons as they stand have transfered stats, we're not using that version of the shield so headshot immunity isn't going to stack with anything, tank buster i understand because getting 35% when the flag is deployed is stacking

I will say tho as hard as im trying to push more item sets i dont want the individual weapons to be nerfed so if the only way these will be added is by total historical accuracy then dont add any, the weapons within the sets are perfect the way they are right now

[protons]

So far we have only reverted item sets that lost something in the changeover. In the July 10 2013 patch, all set bonuses were removed and promptly moved to the items themselves, except for a few.
...
On that note, we actually do have an inaccuracy here which is that the L'Etranger received increased cloak as compensation for losing Saharan Spy, but we brought back the set without removing the bonus.

Within the plugin, we have the ability to tweak weapons so that only when used in the set they lose those extra bonuses, for example we have a Saharan version that removes the L'Etranger cloak bonus but only when you also have the YER equipped, and it otherwise applies. It's not active on the servers but it's in the plugin

I am not in favor of trying or adding any of the other sets because they're either too minor to make a difference or would just conflict with existing items to make far more overpowered combinations.

If we are going to still bother with historical accuracy of an item set, then I would like to point out the following:

• The Special Delivery Set - Currently on the server all the weapons (Shortstop, Mad Milk, and the Holy Mackerel) are reverted to their pre-Summer 2013 update versions.
• The Tank Buster Set - Only the Black Box is reverted to the pre-2013 version. The Battalion's Backup is not. The pre-2013 Battalion's used to be different. If this set is to be restored, then the Battalion's needs to be reverted to what I'd arguably say is its worse version (rage used to only increase when you got hit by damage). Reverting the old Battalion's is also likely to be rather difficult.
• The Gas Jockey - Only the Degreaser is reverted to the pre-2013 version. The Powerjack isn't. The pre-2013 Powerjack variants used to not have the speed on active buffs as what random has wrote. If this set is to be restored, then either we revert the Powerjack to pre-2013 OR the Powerjack gets reverted to its pre-2013 version whenever this item set is equipped.
• The Expert Ordnance - I would like to point out that the Loch-n-Load must be reverted to its pre-2013 version (the 2 shot version with grenade tumble) if this item set is to be restored. The Caber is already reverted to the pre-2013 version. So likewise, we either revert the LnL to its pre-2013 version OR revert it to the pre-2013 version whenever the item set is equipped. Honestly, the set bonus for this is rather unnoticeable if you were to ask me, but I'm open to this.
• The Hibernating Bear - The Brass Beast, The Buffalo Steak Sandvich, and the Warrior's Spirit are reverted to their post-2013 versions. You can see the issue with this.
• The Medieval Medic - The Crossbow and Amputator are reverted to their post-2013 versions.
• The Croc-o-Style Kit - Only the Bushwacka is reverted to the pre-2013 version, while the Sydney Sleeper is reverted to pre-Blue Moon and the Danger Shield is currently the vanilla version. I honestly want this back and revert both the Sleeper and Danger Shield to pre-2013 since it pisses off (pun intended) people.
• The Saharan Spy - Like what random has wrote, its the L'Etranger that's not reverted to pre-2013.

Realistically with the constraints imposed (and based on how difficult these could be implemented in the plugin), then the Gas Jockey, and the Expert Ordnance can be reverted provided that whenever a player equips those item sets, their respective weapons are reverted to the pre-2013 versions to make the item set play as close and it used to be back then. These might be easier to implement since their weapons are just attribute-based reverts. Ideally, whenever someone equips an item set, their respective weapons are reverted to pre-2013 to accurately depict how the set used to be played.

Oh and for the Gas Jockey set, which pre-2013 version of the Powerjack should it be whenever the item set is equipped? The release Powerjack or the Hatless Update Powerjack? I'm asking this regardless if its implemented in the server or not, I'm asking this more for the sake of the plugin itself:

• Release Powerjack - Reverted to release, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, +25% dmg bonus, no random crits
• Hatless Update Powerjack - Reverted to Hatless Update, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, 20% melee vuln while active

[Appolz (with a z)]

• Release Powerjack - Reverted to release, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, +25% dmg bonus, no random crits
• Hatless Update Powerjack - Reverted to Hatless Update, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, 20% melee vuln while active

Hatless. Backscratcher already has a flat bonus damage and melee vuln > no random crits any day.

[Pig]

• Release Powerjack - Reverted to release, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, +25% dmg bonus, no random crits
• Hatless Update Powerjack - Reverted to Hatless Update, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, 20% melee vuln while active

Hatless, but for reasons expressed above, I am against giving weapons two stats depending on item sets. Much more in favor of making the movement buff not tied to having the weapon out.

[random]

• Release Powerjack - Reverted to release, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, +25% dmg bonus, no random crits
• Hatless Update Powerjack - Reverted to Hatless Update, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, 20% melee vuln while active

Hatless, but for reasons expressed above, I am against giving weapons two stats depending on item sets. Much more in favor of making the movement buff not tied to having the weapon out.

I think the general problem with doing item sets this way is it makes weapons forced into a niche. For example let's say the L'Etranger just had the 40% cloak bonus removed in all cases instead of only with the set. This would reduce one of the main reasons people even use the weapon and force it to only be used with the set. Similar for the powerjack, many people use it specifically for the movement speed (such as gap closing with the phlog or when ubered, or running to the front lines faster) and removing it and forcing it to the set means it's less of a generally usable weapon. It's why I don't like the idea of nerfing items generally just for a specific use case of a set, and why nerfing it only when the set is active makes more sense.

I also want to make my stance clear that I don't think we really need to change the plugin config much. Is what we have not enough? Do we really need to minmax every individual revert to the point where we go back and forth on something like set bonuses that are too minor to make much of an impact?

[Suspicious Carl]

i never intended to open up this whole can of worms with balancing when bringing up sets the first time, i personally dont have a problem with the weapons not being time period accurate to get the bonus but if its total accuracy or nothing then i want nothing, dont bother with anymore sets saharan spy and milkman are god tier and good enough

also pocket pistol is mid, it aint useless but the other one is just the G.O.A.T

[Appolz (with a z)]

Is what we have not enough? Do we really need to minmax every individual revert to the point where we go back and forth on something like set bonuses that are too minor to make much of an impact?

New April fools idea: enable all set bonuses while leaving the buffed post-set weapon stats intact. +25% movespeed with powerjack out.

Serious note and unpopular opinion: I like the +7hp on hit pocket pistol. The live version is basically a downgrade from stock because +3 per hit and reduced mag capacity makes it mad milk but worse in every conceivable way.
140HP + no fall damage is still objectively better, but the +7 health steal version is actually viable.

[huutti]

Thoughts on pocket pistol:
I like it, it's pretty good. It feels like a proper weapon that you'd use rather than some passive utility you barely use as a weapon. It pairs nicely with sodapopper minicrits, which also negates the healing falloff. Some could say it's redundant to mad milk, but the milk leaves you without a secondary pistol

On the release version, I think the fall damage immunity is redundant to playing scout. The release pocket pistol was meant to be paired with the release Baby Face's Blaster, where you lost all your boost if you jumped at all. But we don't use the release version, we use the buffed Baby Face's Blaster where you only lose 25% boost on air jumps. Furthermore, if you have more than 25% boost you are already running faster than a normal Scout, and any lost boost can be gotten back by shooting at enemies.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if we went back to the release version, it's what we've used for a long time by now

[Gabber]

I am making two changes which we are going to try out.

• Pretty boy's pocket pistol reverted to pre-blue moon, which is the modern one but instead of +3 health per hit, it's +7. I'm interested if this makes it good enough to surpass the 15 hp pocket pistol or not
• Saharan Spy Historical Accuracy, this makes the L'Etranger not give a cloak bonus only when used in the saharan set, it still gives the cloak bonus if used with a regular knife.

Pocket pistol should stay where it was for centuries now because it worked perfectly.
The +15 max HP combined with the anti-fall damage stat saved me more times than i can count.
The weapon was literally created to pair with the BFB and it serves in that role perfectly since you don't have to jump to save yourself from dying.

c210cd4bac06780aade7c96bc9dd9ea9.png (777.79 KiB) Viewed 1972 times

And it's versatile enough to always be useful even when you're not using the BFB, it's great with the stock scattergun or FaN, you can use it to counteract the sandman's hp penalty for example...it's been my go to secondary for scout since we added in the revert unless there were 5 pyros on the enemy team, i get arguably the most useful passive utility scout could get in the game while also still having a viable pistol.

No the self-heal version isn't terrible, but it's not any fucking better. For starters you don't even have to take out the old pocket pistol to make use of it. The new revert isn't going to save me from cratering, it's not going to save me in a situation where i take around 130 damage instantly, the combo pairing with the BFB disappears completely. A great weapon with completely unique passive utility disappears and gets turned into a pistol-milk hybrid. It ain't right.

[Asmo]

Pocket pistol should stay where it was for centuries now because it worked perfectly.
The +15 max HP combined with the anti-fall damage stat saved me more times than i can count.
The weapon was literally created to pair with the BFB and it serves in that role perfectly since you don't have to jump to save yourself from dying.

I am in agreeance with Gabber here. The Pocket Pistol has been my go-to secondary ever since we reverted it to pre-Gun Mettle. It's fall damage nullification complements the BFB's double jump penalty perfectly, as it should. I think it's also important to note that the Pocket Pistol is a direct counter to the reverted Loch-n-Load, which was nerfed in the very same update that the Pocket Pistol had it's attributes changed. Yeah the health regen version isn't bad, but it's not any better, and functions as a completely different weapon that tries to solve a problem that scout never had. We need to go back.

[mirajaded]

Realistically with the constraints imposed (and based on how difficult these could be implemented in the plugin), then the Gas Jockey, and the Expert Ordnance can be reverted provided that whenever a player equips those item sets, their respective weapons are reverted to the pre-2013 versions to make the item set play as close and it used to be back then. These might be easier to implement since their weapons are just attribute-based reverts. Ideally, whenever someone equips an item set, their respective weapons are reverted to pre-2013 to accurately depict how the set used to be played.

Oh and for the Gas Jockey set, which pre-2013 version of the Powerjack should it be whenever the item set is equipped? The release Powerjack or the Hatless Update Powerjack? I'm asking this regardless if its implemented in the server or not, I'm asking this more for the sake of the plugin itself:

• Release Powerjack - Reverted to release, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, +25% dmg bonus, no random crits
• Hatless Update Powerjack - Reverted to Hatless Update, no movespeed bonus or dmg vuln, kills restore 75 health with overheal, 20% melee vuln while active

I believe this would be unnecessary. I can't see the justification for adding item set functionality for two similar versions of a melee that only combo with one other weapon (degreaser). The two item sets that are already on the server (special delivery and saharan spy) make sense because of what random said, they lost something important in the updates that removed item sets and gave the perks to the items. You can't get the quieter decloak in vanilla anymore that most people on castaway use for the dead ringer, or +25hp on scout.