Suggestion - MGE

[the_massive]

Some of these reverts would be pretty cool to duel with, amby spy, jumping out of scope, old airstrike etc. I think itd be cool to have a way to mge with these that wouldnt be distruptive to regular server function. A couple ideas that come to mind are a dedicated castaway MGE server (perhaps VA#2 since va1 and 2 are never full at the same time), or MGE in the map pool during dead hours, or when theres less than 6 players, and have it automatically changelevel to something else when the server fills up.

[Gabber]

Historically, both VA servers have filled up at the same time, irregularly, but it still happens, and probably will happen the closer we get to summer.
That said, for the time being i would support VA2 getting turned into MGE at the current activity we have.
Getting to 1v1 with reverts as a waiting room for VA1 when it's full would make waiting a lot more fun.

The ideal scenario imo would be turning VA2 into MGE and somehow toggle it back into normal TF2 when we get a big crowd of players basically having it in reserve, but idk how difficult that would be.

[protons]

The MGE sourcemod plugin is compatible with the Weapon Reverts Extended plugin. I have tried this multiple times on a dedicated server when testing reverts with other people.
The MGE plugin is only enabled if it is on an MGE map. If not, then the MGE plugin is not enabled and the server plays as normal with weapon reverts. We could probably just add an mge map into the nominations list which is a simple enough solution.

However, I do not know if the MGE plugin will interfere with other plugins. That I do not know. Only way to find out is to test in production.

Ideally, if we are to go through with an MGE mode, class selection should be unrestricted, bullet spread and random crits are as is (so it doesn't feel too different from the usual games we play).

[chief]

I heavily support this idea so we don't do retarded MGE with 10 seconds respawn timer anymore.

[the_massive]

The MGE sourcemod plugin is compatible with the Weapon Reverts Extended plugin. I have tried this multiple times on a dedicated server when testing reverts with other people.
The MGE plugin is only enabled if it is on an MGE map. If not, then the MGE plugin is not enabled and the server plays as normal with weapon reverts. We could probably just add an mge map into the nominations list which is a simple enough solution.

However, I do not know if the MGE plugin will interfere with other plugins. That I do not know. Only way to find out is to test in production.

Ideally, if we are to go through with an MGE mode, class selection should be unrestricted, bullet spread and random crits are as is (so it doesn't feel too different from the usual games we play).

Thats good to know, hopefully it would be an easy plug and play with the map and sourcemod, and since it wouldnt require a dedicated MGE sesrver, people could hop on whatever's empty and RTV into MGE.

Also i love crits but i have to draw the line with MGE since its about bragging rights and asserting dominance, would be silly to get lucky and win or lose due to a crit.

[kritzburgh]

Fully support this idea if it's as seamless as it sounds. Would be a great way to seed servers.

[random]

If the plugin does interfere it wouldn't be terribly hard to just convert it into a vscript mge map which would work completely on it's own without plugins.

I don't mind this, sounds like a fun idea for seeders. But one thing is we'd need some way to prevent people from going to this map when the server is actually full, some form of custom nomination blacklist.

Additionally, while this might make seeding itself more fun, wouldn't this make seeding harder? Are people going to join if they see it's MGE and maybe they don't want to play MGE? Would random people join during a seed if they see it's MGE? I'm not sure. I haven't played MGE in so long that I forget if there's something you can do in the map if you aren't actively 1v1ing

On a side note, if this were done, an mge_castaway map would probably be a great first project for someone if they're interested. It might need to be slightly collaborative, as someone who knows how MGE logic/plugin integration works would need to help the person doing the map design/visuals, but could be done.

[kritzburgh]

If the plugin does interfere it wouldn't be terribly hard to just convert it into a vscript mge map which would work completely on it's own without plugins.

I don't mind this, sounds like a fun idea for seeders. But one thing is we'd need some way to prevent people from going to this map when the server is actually full, some form of custom nomination blacklist.

Additionally, while this might make seeding itself more fun, wouldn't this make seeding harder? Are people going to join if they see it's MGE and maybe they don't want to play MGE? Would random people join during a seed if they see it's MGE? I'm not sure. I haven't played MGE in so long that I forget if there's something you can do in the map if you aren't actively 1v1ing

On a side note, if this were done, an mge_castaway map would probably be a great first project for someone if they're interested. It might need to be slightly collaborative, as someone who knows how MGE logic/plugin integration works would need to help the person doing the map design/visuals, but could be done.

There's another idea that's popped into my mind before where, you know how before and after a community Competitive match, people in the server can just frag with instant respawns? It's a deathmatch sort of mode until enough players on the server "ready up", and then the real match begins. See timestamp 1:48 on this video to see an example:
That'd be an ideal way to seed a server until there's like 6 or 7 people playing, all while the server stays on a normal map and not some weird MGE map.

But of course, I doubt this would be seamless, and we wouldn't want to have to deal with "readying up" every time we switch maps on a full server, only when we're trying to seed. The only way it'd work is if someone was able to reliably turn that setting off once a server is full enough for regular matches. Maybe there'd be a way of automatically switching the server from deathmatch mode to normal TF2 once the server hits a certain number of players (maybe 6)?

Either way, that's why I think MGE could be the ticket since it's the most action you can get at like 6 or fewer players, and then everyone can rtv to a real map if they want.

[Scout]

I prefer Kritzburgh's idea. I don't think randoms (and possibly some regulars too, idk) would be as willing to join during MGE, and having instant respawns while the server has less than, say, 10 people would still make seeding more enjoyable. Transitioning to regular server mode would also be less interrupting since it wouldn't necessitate a map change.

[random]

I prefer Kritzburgh's idea. I don't think randoms (and possibly some regulars too, idk) would be as willing to join during MGE, and having instant respawns while the server has less than, say, 10 people would still make seeding more enjoyable. Transitioning to regular server mode would also be less interrupting since it wouldn't necessitate a map change.

Instant respawn based on player count is a much easier thing to implement so I'd prefer this out of laziness as well

[Gabber]

Make VA2 the ONLY server where this is a thing and you don't have to worry about "transitioning" or whatever nigga. Just make it the designated reserve server that's designed for this purpose with the possibility of switching to normal tf2 when NA is overcrowded, every other server should stay as is. And kritzburg is talking about soapdm, it's a plugin u can just get i think its this https://github.com/sapphonie/SOAP-TF2DM

[Gabber]

If the plugin does interfere it wouldn't be terribly hard to just convert it into a vscript mge map which would work completely on it's own without plugins.

I don't mind this, sounds like a fun idea for seeders. But one thing is we'd need some way to prevent people from going to this map when the server is actually full, some form of custom nomination blacklist.

Additionally, while this might make seeding itself more fun, wouldn't this make seeding harder? Are people going to join if they see it's MGE and maybe they don't want to play MGE? Would random people join during a seed if they see it's MGE? I'm not sure. I haven't played MGE in so long that I forget if there's something you can do in the map if you aren't actively 1v1ing

On a side note, if this were done, an mge_castaway map would probably be a great first project for someone if they're interested. It might need to be slightly collaborative, as someone who knows how MGE logic/plugin integration works would need to help the person doing the map design/visuals, but could be done.

we DO NOT need every server to have this, NA needs a waiting room because you have to wait for an hour in queue on peak hours just make VA2 the dm/mge server, the sooner the better im sitting in queue typing this shit out right now i could be mge'ing (ON VA2 EXCLUSIVELY TO NOT MAKE EVERY SERVER HAVE THIS READ NIGGA READ!)

[protons]

if a waiting room server is needed whenever a server is full, just spin up another server without ddos protection (so that its cheap) and put the mge mode in it.
anyways, having instant respawn when the playercount is like less than 6 seems nice

[the_massive]

I'd much prefer an MGE mode to be available over a DM mode automatically enabled on low player counts, itd give the early players more choice on how they want to play, as well as more arenas to choose from, and the ability to have a fair 1v1 with someone which isn't something you can get in castaway most of the time, and itd be a great change to 1v1 some of the regulars i talk shit to without having to run into another server.

Additionally, while this might make seeding itself more fun, wouldn't this make seeding harder? Are people going to join if they see it's MGE and maybe they don't want to play MGE? Would random people join during a seed if they see it's MGE? I'm not sure. I haven't played MGE in so long that I forget if there's something you can do in the map if you aren't actively 1v1ing

I don't know whats easy or not to do with server configuration, but one solution to this concern is having the map automatically change to a regular map if more than 6 or 8 players are present. Then people joining would know a regular game is gonna start as soon as enough people to support one join, especially the seeders who tend to be castaway patriots. MGE is a unique thing, people seeding could even have fun just watching others duel and commenting on it while waiting to fight the winner.

One advantage to having MGE as an optional "waiting room" map instead of just having VA#2 be the dedicated MGE server would be euros getting to MGE with low ping while they wait for the EU session to fill up, which I and every other europoor would appreciate.

[kritzburgh]

I'd be happy with either solution, and like Gabber says, Virginia #2 would be an excellent way of trial running it. Could even try both starting with MGE first, and see what people think. This would get us back to 2 full NA servers at peak hours.

[Asmo]

mge good

[random]

For those interested in MGE, if we could only have one map what would the ideal one be? I have a good way to get it so it's only in rotation on virginia 2 but I am not too familiar with mge maps. mge_training_v8_beta4b seems to be the one that gets run most frequently from what I can see

I'm also curious if anyone knows just to save myself some time, but does the MGE plugin only activate on MGE maps, and it turns off otherwise? If not that is going to be a lift to implement

[random]

I've implemented this on Virginia 2 only. There is a MGE map, which can be nominated infinitely (it never enters the "played recently" pool) and the MGEmod plugin activates only on that map. There are currently no player count restrictions on when you can nominate it, nor does it get swapped off automatically. The timer on it also does not end, meaning that to exit the map you will need to RTV.

[mirajaded]

I've implemented this on Virginia 2 only. There is a MGE map, which can be nominated infinitely (it never enters the "played recently" pool) and the MGEmod plugin activates only on that map. There are currently no player count restrictions on when you can nominate it, nor does it get swapped off automatically. The timer on it also does not end, meaning that to exit the map you will need to RTV.

This is honestly a really good solution for the few people who wanted a lobby map. We don't have to make a VRChat map and we get to MGE to pass the time while queueing for VA1, which will absolutely be fun with reverts. Thank you. Is it possible in the future that we could make a custom map for MGE that has stuff we play often? Asteroid middle, fastlane second+middle, any point on 5gorge, we could even throw in something like brickyard.

[the_massive]

I've implemented this on Virginia 2 only. There is a MGE map, which can be nominated infinitely (it never enters the "played recently" pool) and the MGEmod plugin activates only on that map. There are currently no player count restrictions on when you can nominate it, nor does it get swapped off automatically. The timer on it also does not end, meaning that to exit the map you will need to RTV.

Awesome. Hosting it on VA2 is a good way to trial it and experiment with the idea, If this works out fine would you explore ways to add it to the EU server? Getting to MGE on low ping while waiting for a session to start, or after ones ended and theres a few players left would be great.

[protons]

I've implemented this on Virginia 2 only. There is a MGE map, which can be nominated infinitely (it never enters the "played recently" pool) and the MGEmod plugin activates only on that map. There are currently no player count restrictions on when you can nominate it, nor does it get swapped off automatically. The timer on it also does not end, meaning that to exit the map you will need to RTV.

Enable random crits for melee only please. Reverted Half-Zatoichi needs the random crits.

Set tf_weapon_criticals_melee 2 in console and tf_weapon_criticals 0. This will make only melee weapons randomly crit and not primary/secondary weapons.

[protons]

lots of players have map is missing errors with the mge server
can't you just use steam workshop links for it

[chief]

Need this on SG as well

[the_massive]

Need this on SG as well

Seconded, and on EU aswell. There was no issue with MGE stunting the server, we had a lotta people join mge on va2 last saturday, and when about 8 or 9 players joined, we all RTVd and began a regular session. If its possible, the only change i'd make is removing MGE from the pool during peak hours, eg GMT+0 1700-2300 for EU.

Feedback i have seen is confusion at first, since its an unusual map to see on castaway, but people were all having a lotta fun dueling, chatting and goofing off while waiting for the server to fill up.

[kritzburgh]

Need this on SG as well

Seconded, and on EU aswell. There was no issue with MGE stunting the server, we had a lotta people join mge on va2 last saturday, and when about 8 or 9 players joined, we all RTVd and began a regular session. If its possible, the only change i'd make is removing MGE from the pool during peak hours, eg GMT+0 1700-2300 for EU.

Feedback i have seen is confusion at first, since its an unusual map to see on castaway, but people were all having a lotta fun dueling, chatting and goofing off while waiting for the server to fill up.

Yep, like I said in the group chat last night, MGE's been a MASSIVE success in seeding servers, getting us to double-digit player counts on consecutive occasions, and hours before a session officially starts. Getting MGE on every region and both Virginia servers is a great idea and will grow Castaway's total playtime greatly.
Only caveat is we need to make sure we switch to normal TF2 in a timely fashion from now on, or at the very least, when the session officially starts for that region, which did not happen last night for NA. That's where you'll start getting unneeded animosity about the whole thing from people who are confused by why the servers are split 9/24 to 8/24 at 8:30 PM or leaving when it's clear that they won't get to play normal TF2 for another 2 hours, despite there being 16 players in the server.

[Gabber]

I was against MGE on all servers because i think it sort of undermines their VANILLA, stock tf2 nature, my idea was that VA2 was going to be a sort of more "experimental" server where we could try something like MGE or DM while all the other servers stayed fully stock TF2.

But if it's been working well and everyone supports it i guess we could go with MGE globally, anything to help seed the servers. With that said, we definitely need to make sure this works properly, the transition period into stock TF2 should be smooth and there shouldnt be any bullshit about nominating mge when there's 20 players on the server. Probably peg the availiability of MGE to playercount somehow, i.e: If server hits 10 players a map vote off MGE is called instantly and MGE can't be nominated unless the server dips below 10 again.

Also i'm not sure what the status on crits is now but it should 100% be enabled for MGE. Castaway MGE without crits is nonsense and would not be accurate to the server. I want to crit bison airshot niggas on granary mid.

[random]

I was against MGE on all servers because i think it sort of undermines their VANILLA, stock tf2 nature, my idea was that VA2 was going to be a sort of more "experimental" server where we could try something like MGE or DM while all the other servers stayed fully stock TF2.

But if it's been working well and everyone supports it i guess we could go with MGE globally, anything to help seed the servers. With that said, we definitely need to make sure this works properly, the transition period into stock TF2 should be smooth and there shouldnt be any bullshit about nominating mge when there's 20 players on the server. Probably peg the availiability of MGE to playercount somehow, i.e: If server hits 10 players a map vote off MGE is called instantly and MGE can't be nominated unless the server dips below 10 again.

Also i'm not sure what the status on crits is now but it should 100% be enabled for MGE. Castaway MGE without crits is nonsense and would not be accurate to the server. I want to crit bison airshot niggas on granary mid.

An automatic rtv vote sounds like a good idea to me and it's what I was kind of already planning on implementing. So for some player count, you can't play MGE above it and it gets rtv'd as soon as you hit that cap, then it's not possible to nominate after that. Going to take some modding of the nomination plugin to achieve but shouldn't be too hard

I wanted crits off just to start since I think some people more familiar with MGE might prefer it but it doesn't really matter to me. If people want random crit MGE then that's fine. In a perfect world there'd be some way to disable random crits on a per-duel basis but I am not current very interested in modding the MGE plugin to add anything like that. If someone else is interested I can put the plugin in our github and we can make changes

I will say that I'd like to have some form of poll for players whether they want this system in, because I know some people don't really like MGE very much (such as myself) and that would actively make me less likely to seed. Of course I haven't been an active seeder in a long time so my opinion on the subject is less important than those of our active seeders, but something to think about.

[kritzburgh]

Ideally, I don't think MGE is something that should be done more than an hour while seeding. I also think the only thing that would stop people from joining MGE during off hours would be the lack of "finality" it currently has where the only way to change maps is RTV (takes too many people) or switch servers (too much of a hassle). In other words, people will join MGE and stay if they know they're 20 minutes away from playing real TF2. Having a map vote on a timer like other maps, or an automatic RTV once there's 10 players, would fix this. Meanwhile, the hardest part of seeding is getting the initial 6 or so players, and MGE is perfect for getting the ball rolling.

[hole filler]

I fail to see how this is a "resounding success". If the goal is to seed the servers then it completely failed today. The session started a little earlier than the scheduled start, yet failed to get more than 6 people until the map changed off of MGE an hour after the scheduled start. On a typical night, the server is full or nearing full after an hour. Many people (myself included) have 0 interest in playing a 1v1 mode in Team Fortress 2, and if they see MGE being played they will wait until the map changes to join. The other option is to seed VA1 while VA2 is playing MGE, which is what I did a few days ago, but this just leads to VA1 filling slower as the player count is split. As today showed, the server just delays getting filled until it leaves MGE.
If the goal is to seed VA2 while VA1 is going, then I am also doubtful how well it achieves that. I haven't looked at the player counts to see how it has fared in that regard, so this is all just speculation. The problem we have always had with getting two NA servers going at the same time is that people will mostly prefer to play on the full(er) server, and will just treat the second server as a waiting room while they queue for the full server. I feel like having MGE on the second server just exacerbates the problem, as people will (generally) not only prefer to play the vanilla game, but also on the server with more people. At most I can see it making the experience of playing a <5 player server more bearable, but I don't see how that converts to a full server. Also, if VA2 gets successfully seeded as the primary server for the session, then this whole MGE thing is just rendered moot.
I only see two potential "benefits" to MGE. First, it provides NA players a place to play with low ping and low players during other region's times. In my opinion, you should just suck it up and play with high ping if you feel like playing Castaway outside of your region's hours. Second, it acts as a waiting room for VA1, but like I said earlier, I am doubtful it will convert into a second session rather than just acting as a queue for VA1.

tl;dr mge = mega gay entertainment

EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention is that the player count will be harmed due to first time players. i.e. First time players that find Castaway in the server browser that want to play vanilla TF2 will not join an MGE server, and any first time players that want to play MGE will just leave after the server changes maps.

[kritzburgh]

I fail to see how this is a "resounding success". If the goal is to seed the servers then it completely failed today. The session started a little earlier than the scheduled start, yet failed to get more than 6 people until the map changed off of MGE an hour after the scheduled start. On a typical night, the server is full or nearing full after an hour. Many people (myself included) have 0 interest in playing a 1v1 mode in Team Fortress 2, and if they see MGE being played they will wait until the map changes to join. The other option is to seed VA1 while VA2 is playing MGE, which is what I did a few days ago, but this just leads to VA1 filling slower as the player count is split. As today showed, the server just delays getting filled until it leaves MGE.
If the goal is to seed VA2 while VA1 is going, then I am also doubtful how well it achieves that. I haven't looked at the player counts to see how it has fared in that regard, so this is all just speculation. The problem we have always had with getting two NA servers going at the same time is that people will mostly prefer to play on the full(er) server, and will just treat the second server as a waiting room while they queue for the full server. I feel like having MGE on the second server just exacerbates the problem, as people will (generally) not only prefer to play the vanilla game, but also on the server with more people. At most I can see it making the experience of playing a <5 player server more bearable, but I don't see how that converts to a full server. Also, if VA2 gets successfully seeded as the primary server for the session, then this whole MGE thing is just rendered moot.
I only see two potential "benefits" to MGE. First, it provides NA players a place to play with low ping and low players during other region's times. In my opinion, you should just suck it up and play with high ping if you feel like playing Castaway outside of your region's hours. Second, it acts as a waiting room for VA1, but like I said earlier, I am doubtful it will convert into a second session rather than just acting as a queue for VA1.

tl;dr mge = mega gay entertainment

EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention is that the player count will be harmed due to first time players. i.e. First time players that find Castaway in the server browser that want to play vanilla TF2 will not join an MGE server, and any first time players that want to play MGE will just leave after the server changes maps.

I'll clarify that only the 1st night was a resounding success since we successfully rtv'd to real TF2 after about an hour and got a 12-hour session going. Last night was a proof of concept that people will fill up an MGE session fast to play a duel or two, with the expectation that real TF2 will be played soon after, but we didn't get the requisite rtv's like the previous night, and so a 16-player server waned over the course of 2 hours instead. Not good. It's why we need MGE to have a vanilla map timer ruleset like every other map - 45 minutes with a map vote at the end - with the standard option to extend via F5 if there's still not enough players. I think that's the crux of the problem here, not MGE itself, because it's understood that there are people who will simply never join MGE because they don't like it. That goes double if there's no guarantee of a map switch anytime soon, you just can't rely solely on enough people rtv'ing. However, if you give them the assurance that, the sooner they join, the faster the server can fill up, and the faster the map can switch from MGE to real TF2, then it's no different than helping seed a server that's on cp_dustbowl even if you don't like Dustbowl. MGE should be a means to an end, not the end itself.

Also, first time players that find Castaway in the server browser are only going to join if there's a decent session already going on anyway. MGE is about getting that initial 6 to 10 player seed going (the hardest part) as quick as possible, and I think it's shown it can help us get there quickly and consistently. However, every day that goes by without some safeguard that ensures the MGE map will be switched off of in a timely manner is another day that more people will sour on this whole idea, which is very unfortunate imo.