SnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 8:19 pmI think readding the particle density requirement would fix this. I'm not sure when this was changed in the server settings. Is there a log for server balance changes?
The idea was to revert the blue moon flame nerf and bring the flames back to what they were when JI first dropped. Would have been at some point last year
random wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 8:58 pmSnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 8:19 pmI think readding the particle density requirement would fix this. I'm not sure when this was changed in the server settings. Is there a log for server balance changes?
The idea was to revert the blue moon flame nerf and bring the flames back to what they were when JI first dropped. Would have been at some point last year
The issue were flames were extremely broken when JI first dropped. The videos I posted show this. The new particles broke much of how pyro's flame damage was intended to work originally. There was latter a March 28, 2018 update that explained why flamethrowers were nerfed.
Flamethrowers were able to do full damage regardless of the spread of their flames, rewarding maximizing flame spread over focusing on a target. We've made changes geared toward preserving the current damage range of flamethrowers, but requiring better aim to do so.
Flame damage per second now ramps up based on density of flame encountered, up to 200%
Initial flame damage per second reduced by 50%, resulting in the max damage being unchanged
I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?
SnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 9:45 pmrandom wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 8:58 pmThe idea was to revert the blue moon flame nerf and bring the flames back to what they were when JI first dropped. Would have been at some point last year
The issue were flames were extremely broken when JI first dropped. The videos I posted show this. The new particles broke much of how pyro's flame damage was intended to work originally. There was latter a March 28, 2018 update that explained why flamethrowers were nerfed.
Flamethrowers were able to do full damage regardless of the spread of their flames, rewarding maximizing flame spread over focusing on a target. We've made changes geared toward preserving the current damage range of flamethrowers, but requiring better aim to do so.
Flame damage per second now ramps up based on density of flame encountered, up to 200%
Initial flame damage per second reduced by 50%, resulting in the max damage being unchangedI don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?
the current flame is broken the rampup doesnt work and constantly resets itself so your never actually getting full damage
Suspicious Carl wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 11:01 pmSnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 9:45 pmThe issue were flames were extremely broken when JI first dropped. The videos I posted show this. The new particles broke much of how pyro's flame damage was intended to work originally. There was latter a March 28, 2018 update that explained why flamethrowers were nerfed.
I don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?
the current flame is broken the rampup doesnt work and constantly resets itself so your never actually getting full damage
Pyro still does approx 65+ damage per second
SnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 9:45 pmI don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?
If I recall the discussion when this was originally being worked on, it was regarding trying to get flamethrowers back to pre-JI and this was seen as a decent workaround since a full revert is very involved. I'm impartial because I don't play pyro but I'd prefer flames being how they were pre-JI as that's the era of the game we are trying to emulate
random wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 11:50 pmSnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 9:45 pmI don't think flames themselves are in a bad position in the current patch of the game. Why would there need to be a flame revert?
If I recall the discussion when this was originally being worked on, it was regarding trying to get flamethrowers back to pre-JI and this was seen as a decent workaround since a full revert is very involved. I'm impartial because I don't play pyro but I'd prefer flames being how they were pre-JI as that's the era of the game we are trying to emulate
If that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.
SnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 11:58 pmIf that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.
That task is more trouble than it's worth, since it is not just the damage itself that changed from the pre-JI flamethrower, but also the way how the flame particles themselves moved.
Because the particles moved differently back then, it also made the damage and how it was dealt different. Back then you could peek a corner and destroy a sentry by just putting your crosshair just inches away from the corner.
Fully reverting back to the pre-Jungle Inferno Flamethrower and its mechanics is a monumental and difficult task. NotnHeavy used to have a separate plugin for reverting to pre-JI flames, but that plugin has been abandoned, broken beyond repair, and is hard to understand. The easiest way to revert it is to fully modify the source code of the game itself but even that is hard. Trying to do it via SourceMod is already a big ask. Unfortunately, NotnHeavy has disappeared from the internet forever as of the time of this writing.
As for the plugin changelog, it is somewhere in the GitHub Wiki pages of the plugin repository. The changelog goes all the way back to 2024.
Currently, the only choices here are 1. keep the flamethrower revert, 2. revert the Dead Ringer back to pre-2013 which had a flat 90% dmg resist regardless of damage taken so you don't melt from Pyros instantly at close range (or revert it to release day 0 which had no recharge cooldown practically), and 3. un-revert the flamethrower; unless someone with a giant brain manages to restore NotnHeavy's old pre-JI Flamethrower plugin and we can finally get back pre-JI flames.
Part of the reason why the Flamethrower was reverted was because the reverted Dragon's Fury was already dominating it in terms of DPS, and the post Blue Moon flamethrower is just really weak because of the flame ramp up mechanic. Because of those nerfs, Pyro was seen as the class with the weakest damage output.
protons wrote: Fri May 29, 2026 3:18 amSnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 11:58 pmIf that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.
That task is more trouble than it's worth, since it is not just the damage itself that changed from the pre-JI flamethrower, but also the way how the flame particles themselves moved.
Because the particles moved differently back then, it also made the damage and how it was dealt different. Back then you could peek a corner and destroy a sentry by just putting your crosshair just inches away from the corner.
Fully reverting back to the pre-Jungle Inferno Flamethrower and its mechanics is a monumental and difficult task. NotnHeavy used to have a separate plugin for reverting to pre-JI flames, but that plugin has been abandoned, broken beyond repair, and is hard to understand. The easiest way to revert it is to fully modify the source code of the game itself but even that is hard. Trying to do it via SourceMod is already a big ask. Unfortunately, NotnHeavy has disappeared from the internet forever as of the time of this writing.
As for the plugin changelog, it is somewhere in the GitHub Wiki pages of the plugin repository. The changelog goes all the way back to 2024.
Currently, the only choices here are 1. keep the flamethrower revert, 2. revert the Dead Ringer back to pre-2013 which had a flat 90% dmg resist regardless of damage taken so you don't melt from Pyros instantly at close range (or revert it to release day 0 which had no recharge cooldown practically), and 3. un-revert the flamethrower; unless someone with a giant brain manages to restore NotnHeavy's old pre-JI Flamethrower plugin and we can finally get back pre-JI flames.
Part of the reason why the Flamethrower was reverted was because the reverted Dragon's Fury was already dominating it in terms of DPS, and the post Blue Moon flamethrower is just really weak because of the flame ramp up mechanic. Because of those nerfs, Pyro was seen as the class with the weakest damage output.
I haven't yet attempted to seriously tackle the flame plugin, I guess now will have to do
EDIT: Got it working
Shiieeet i really like the JI flame buffs i think the dead ringer should just get that double revert from protons, or the one that doesnt even have a shutter
day 4
#10supporters
protons wrote: Fri May 29, 2026 3:18 amSnK | Snakes and Knives wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 11:58 pmIf that's the case the damage needs to be adjusted to match how pre JI pyro was. The new particles are too dense to have the same damage numbers attached. I've seen multiple cases now where pyro instantly deletes classes with just throwing flames around instead of the flame set ups pre JI pyro had to do. Pre JI pyro was much more flare gun combo focused since that's how pyro secured kills.
That task is more trouble than it's worth, since it is not just the damage itself that changed from the pre-JI flamethrower, but also the way how the flame particles themselves moved.
Because the particles moved differently back then, it also made the damage and how it was dealt different. Back then you could peek a corner and destroy a sentry by just putting your crosshair just inches away from the corner.
Fully reverting back to the pre-Jungle Inferno Flamethrower and its mechanics is a monumental and difficult task. NotnHeavy used to have a separate plugin for reverting to pre-JI flames, but that plugin has been abandoned, broken beyond repair, and is hard to understand. The easiest way to revert it is to fully modify the source code of the game itself but even that is hard. Trying to do it via SourceMod is already a big ask. Unfortunately, NotnHeavy has disappeared from the internet forever as of the time of this writing.
As for the plugin changelog, it is somewhere in the GitHub Wiki pages of the plugin repository. The changelog goes all the way back to 2024.
Currently, the only choices here are 1. keep the flamethrower revert, 2. revert the Dead Ringer back to pre-2013 which had a flat 90% dmg resist regardless of damage taken so you don't melt from Pyros instantly at close range (or revert it to release day 0 which had no recharge cooldown practically), and 3. un-revert the flamethrower; unless someone with a giant brain manages to restore NotnHeavy's old pre-JI Flamethrower plugin and we can finally get back pre-JI flames.
Part of the reason why the Flamethrower was reverted was because the reverted Dragon's Fury was already dominating it in terms of DPS, and the post Blue Moon flamethrower is just really weak because of the flame ramp up mechanic. Because of those nerfs, Pyro was seen as the class with the weakest damage output.
Thank you for explaining this. The changes make a lot more sense now. It's definitely a monumental task to get flames working again so instead of nerfing one side buffing the other might be a better solution if the plugin is unavailable. I still think that version of the Dead Ringer would be problematic but it would help recreate the time period that Random mentioned earlier. I still think that would make stock invis fall off in usage which I'm not a huge advocate of but maybe there's a way to adjust cloak resistance in general to leave invis still an attractive option.